Hi from Barcelona

[amarce]

Hi Guys,

I am from Barcelona, Spain and I have a grey Twingo RS.

I will try to explain a bit the life of the car, and let's see if anyone can help me Excuse me for the "big" post, but I want to put everyone into the situation.

From the beggining it was sluggish and did not rev freely at all. We installed a custom made exhaust (The same diameter as the catalyst to the end, removing the expansor box). We also have installed an Apexi air filter (Since is the one that retains more dirt and flows freely). We talked to Henk at RSTuner and he was very kind and helpful and he said that our Long Term Fuel Trim was low (It was on 43, so aprox a 10% less fuel was being injected into the engine). We have changed the MAP sensor and the front O2 sensor, and Henk was happy with te result, so he had done a remap for us.

After the remap the car was stronger and faster, but in some days it went nuts and the LTFT was bad again, we contacted Henk and he said that maybe is some related to the gas quality in Spain. Since we bought an RS, and we wanted an RS, we installed a Greddy Emanage Ultimate into the car (I can post a howto if someone wants it ) and we have tuned the car ourselves (We should rent a dyno, but by the moment has a "fast street tune").

The problem here, is that the car seems faster with AFR's of 11:1 - 10.6:1 from 4000RPM's to 7900RPM's... I think that is too high for an N/A car. Can someone tell me which AFR's are running the healthy and fast cars? Maybe when we rent the dyno we can try to get 12:1 - 12.8:1 checking for knock, but as we where getting out fuel, the car was feeling slower and slower. so, if anyone can tell me which AFR's - RPM's have in a "normal" and fast car, I will be more than happy

Thanks and regards!!

 

[JamesGT]

Firstly Welcome along, secondly there will be someone who can help you along soon im sure!

 

[Mike_Robo]

Welcome to the Forum! get some pics up as well

 

[Karl]

Welcome

 

[singlespeed]

Maybe you are masking a fault and remapping to counter this. Adding more and more fuel is only going to give more power if there is enough oxygen to burn and also the timing of the spark is correctly timed.

10.6 (air):1 (fuel) is very fuel rich compared to most NA motors. How do the spark plugs and exhaust emisions look?

 

[singlespeed]

Welcome

Oh. I forgot that part

Welcome :mrgreen:

 

[madmatt]

Oooooooh, Japanese Parts FTW

Welcome to the forum, might give you a shout at somepoint regarding the GReddy Emanage...

 

[JE_GT]

Welcome

 

[amarce]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the welcome. I agree that the AFR is so high, this is why I am asking about that here since every model and engine is different I would like to know the opinion of the experts of this platform.

I will take pics of the car and the setup, I promise but I had no time.

I've installed the wideband gauge and I realized that with the OEM filter it goes to 11.0:1 with the RSTuner remap, and it falls to 11.6:1 with the Apexi filter and feels a lot weaker. So I realized that maybe I should keep the AFR into the 11:1 range

The Emanage setup is amazing for installing a turbo (which I hope that will be in next year )

The plugs looked blackish (not too black) with the RSTuner map and the exhaust is a bit black too (Again not too much)

Thanks for your help guys!!

 

[singlespeed]

i bet your fuel economy is poor and a lot of it is coming from the exhaust as unburnt HC and CO.

The original ecu maps use the lambda sensors to get about low 14's, yet your forcing extra fuel in to make 11's. Without the correct ignition timing, knock monittoring and exhaust gas monitoring, you would probably be better reinstating the original base map and getting that working first.


Just noticed 7900rpm. I hope you have ARP rod bolts fitted as 7500 is the most that is expected to be reliable and the power is dropping off anyway, so not much point going higher

 

[amarce]

Hi singlespeed,

We are using the RSTuner map and only correcting from 4000RPM and onwards. The original ECU is still there and the EManage is a piggyback unit that modifies the values that you decide to modify, but the rest is taken from the OEM ECU. We have both original O2 sensors and additional wideband sensor.

We can verify the AFR through the EManage with the wideband and the knock through the Original ECU.

So we will make a map to go for high 13's on AFR and we will check the knock in the meanwhile. The phase 2 is control timing, but right now is also OEM.

Regarding the 7900RPM, I've expanded the map to 8000, but is not used since we are using the rev limiter from the original one!

Thanks for the tips!!

I will try improve my tune!

 

[madmatt]

Hey bud, does the GReddy Emanage have a similar visual OBD/datalog link to the HKS FCon?

Also can you set an Ignition cut rev limiter for it?

 

[amarce]

Hi Matt,

It has a standard data logger with graphs and a replay option with "map cel tracking" so you can see which cell is used at every log point.

I have not been playing with the timing advance yet, but AFAIK, you can only add/substract timing from the OEM ECU based on RPM/TPS or RPM/MAP sensor in the increments you want.

The cut limiter is basic also, but you can setup a 2step easily and the No Lift for Shift feature and things like that.

You can check the EManage ultimate manual and it explains everything in more detail there.

If you want, I can post both pinouts and settings in a separate post. I have no pictures, but I can explain which pin goes where.

Regards

 

[singlespeed]

The problem with a piggyback is you can modify parameters on the emanage, which the original ECU will then try and compensate for whilst in closed loop management. If you make an adjustment and think you have finished but the ECU is still adjusting, the final result will be different to what you expect.

Beware of going too lean or adding extra ignition advance at high load, high RPM points as the combustion temperature will be higher and the chance of knock will also be higher as a lean mixture will burn hotter and quicker. But 10.6:1 is probably too rich unless your running a turbo or rotary engine

Theres a lot of information about AFR tunning for the likes of Megasquirt ECU's (which is what I nearly fited to one of my cars). Time for lots of research and reading and ensure the base ECU map is working as it should before adding too much adjustment.

 

[amarce]

Hi SingleSpeed,

I know that the AFR is high, but I only have experience in turbo engines (NA is a new world to me )

We are only making changes in Open Loop (By the moment at +70% throttle +4000RPM). I have checked the short term fuel trims and when you open the throtthle past +-60% they are freezing and the front O2 probe stops fluctuating which means that it want to open loop, so no correction is made there. I am not changing anything in closed loop because as you stated, the ECU will try to compensate and will break the tune. You can force it going into Open Loop sending 4.99v to the map sensor artificially (I have cheked it and it switches to Open Loop), but usually this ends throwing an error with the time, so we are not doing any of this "tricks".

Also I finetune the injector %, and when I finish, I use the target AFR feature of the Emanage so she will try to compensate if the AFR goes out, so I think that it should be OK with small fluctuations.

Tonight I will try to finetune the engine starting in 12.0:1 checking for knock and we will se if it's possible to get 13.8 (There is where I would like to have it). I think that 13.8 would be a good AFR for a NA engine.

Thanks!!

 

[singlespeed]

how does the standard ecu react when it sences any knock. Does it stay fully open loop? Could it be you are already close to the safe limit and any leaning of the mixture at high load/rpm without adjusting the spark timming is triggering the knock sensor... If the ecu reacts by adding more fuel and/or retarding the ignition and the emanage is using the auto afr then the two will be working against each other

 

[amarce]

Hi SingleSpeed,

The ECU reacts pulling timing (the knock correction slow value on rstuner shows how much timing is pulling AFAIK). And I'm not playing with timing yet, so it will be happy and in Open loop even if it knocks.

This night I will have more information on all this and I will share it with you.

At the end seems that the original problem is that the OEM ECU was pulling fuel but was not able to pull enough fuel and the car was pig rich.

Thanks for your interest in this problem!

Regards

 

[amarce]

Hi guys,

After my nightly testing, I have observed two things.

The first is that when the engine sees knock, it pulls timing (Does not add fuel).

The second is that with an AFR minor than 13.5:1 it starts to knock. I checked everything and it seems caused by a bad fuel (we always use premium 98, but I think that the gas station has a bad gas quality). So I left it at 13:1 to be safe since the car should go to a 2400KM trip and we would like to be on the safe side.

In some months we will rent a dyno and we will see how much more power we can make. But by the moment seems a pretty safe tune and not too rich (maybe a bit, but not too much); what do you think?

Thanks and regards!

 

[singlespeed]

The second is that with an AFR minor than 13.5:1 it starts to knock. I checked everything and it seems caused by a bad fuel (we always use premium 98, but I think that the gas station has a bad gas quality). So I left it at 13:1 to be safe since the car should go to a 2400KM trip and we would like to be on the safe side.

In some months we will rent a dyno and we will see how much more power we can make. But by the moment seems a pretty safe tune and not too rich (maybe a bit, but not too much); what do you think?

Thanks and regards!

Rich may produce less power, but it is safer than running lean. Without an exhaust gas temperature probe on the manifold and the use of a gas analyser to monitor for increased NOx. Theres no point in risking it... Especialy if fuel quality isn't guaranteed to be the same on your next tank

Have you worked out why the map from Henk went out of tune?

After the remap the car was stronger and faster, but in some days it went nuts and the LTFT was bad again

 

[amarce]

Hi SingleSpeed,

I was not able to diagnose why the map that Henk made was out of tune; we have tried the original map and was also screwing up himself. I am beginning to think that maybe the original ECU is faulty since the fuel trim goes down but the AFR is really rich.

I should check for a broken injector or a faulty coil, because I have already changed the front O2 sensor, and the map sensor; the car does not hesitate or throws flames when you lift the throttle and the oil does not smell like gas, so I think that is not injector or coil related, but maybe I can check it to be sure.

Thanks again!!