OK NOW OSBORNE HAS GONE TOO FAR

[wanda]

Putting VAT on Greg's sausage rolls.

That is a crime. How can I keep my belly nice and round?

There will be riots. Never mind fuel duty this is fresh pies we are talking about.

 

[Ollie133cup]

What i dont inderstand is how they can Tax food!! Yes fuel etc but food cone on...

 

[maggi200]

It varies. When you go to maccy ds have you noticed they ask you if you're eating in or out?

The reason they do this is because the vat rules differ between the two.

Gregs offer hot food, which is eaten off premises. So IMO this should not fall liable to VAT and I can see this being taken further by the company. If they loose, this would mean a lot of companies are vulnerable to being taxed on many other sales which they currently are not.

There are millions of rules surrounding VAT which I will assume many on here won't understand as they're not clear in many cases.

My understanding of this particular rule is that gregs shouldn't.

IF the food was cold, and you heated it yourself it would not be liable to vat. It's the fact it is hot where the confusion, and the grey area arises. It is no longer a food and becomes more of a luxury.

 

[maggi200]

Bit more to this, my spring 2012 vat update has an area dedicated to fast food outlets. Hmrc has announced plans to target these as there have been large discrepancies between vat returns and annual accounts and therefore tax paid. Hot food on a take away basis should already be liable to vat and it should only be *some* cold food take away items that are zero rated (which differs to exempt).

They have set up teams to cover some areas, so far I'm aware london, Liverpool and manchester are being targeted. Teams of hmrc officers asking to view till receipts to ensure sales for takeaways actually are recorded accurately and are consistent with customer behaviour and the layout of the outlet as many businesses record them as zero rated rather than at 20% and simply adjust purchases to ensure a sensible and reasonable gross profit is achieved.

Therefore, gregs should have already been paying vat on sausage rolls under current legislation and have theoretically hmrc has the power to back date this and demand payment of the vat element that gregs has incorrectly recorded as profit.

 

[DrDrew]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17532459

 

[Dazza1]

Hot food they charge vat on cold food they cant

 

[maggi200]

Daz that's the problem... People assume that's the case. They can! It's a lot of misconception surrounding var rules.

For instance I travel to you by train and charge you for my time and you pay my train ticket. No vat on the train ticket right? Wrong. it depends on who travelled to who there.

And the amount of people who get it wrong because the rules are not simple, they dont understand them and they don't consult any expert.

And if you ask hmrc do not take their word over the phone. Ever. Have it in writing. Their helpline states that any help or advice is not legal and they don't have to stand by it. So say gregs decision to not charge vat was based on help over the phone they would still be liable and not hmrc

 

[Dazza1]

Robbin ***** u can always pop to iceland and buy greggs frozen sausage rolls and pop them in the oven yourself and as it's iceland that's right u get 4 in a back for £1

 

[maggi200]

Yup no vat. It's not enjoyed on the premises.

If gregs sold them cold, with microwaves outside for you to heat them up... There would be no vat on them... Just an idea :lol:

 

[DrDrew]

Greggs are trying to argue that they shouldn't have to pay vat on them (apart from things like their hot sandwiches), as they're not serving them as "hot food", but as freshly prepared food, which is cooling down when it's sold.

 

[wanda]

Hot food they charge vat on cold food they cant

So if I order the pie cold pay for it and then ask them to warm it up thats not VATable?

 

[maggi200]

Incorrect. That's liable to vat. Unless you warmed it yourself off their premises

 

[Dubz]

So now do you think Greg's are now going to have to say "Well if you wait 5 minutes for it to cool down it'll be VAT free...."

 

[Araf]

Incorrect. That's liable to vat. Unless you warmed it yourself off their premises

I'm not sure that's right. VAT is due (whether it be at standard or zero rate) at the point of sale. Once the transaction has taken place, then later procedures are not subject to VAT unless another transaction takes place. It's no different to a biscuit maker buying zero rated ingredients for their biscuits. Once they are baked (making them standard rated), the baker doesn't have to pay the VAT on the ingredients. However, once the biscuits are sold, VAT is collected.

 

[maggi200]

But there's the difference. The goods being sold and heated on site and enjoyed out of the home. It's not the same as taking it home and baking it.

I'm afraid as far as hmrc is concerned its part and parcel of the sale, and the facilities being offered will be essential to that sale.

 

[Araf]

But there's the difference. The goods being sold and heated on site and enjoyed out of the home. It's not the same as taking it home and baking it.

I'm afraid as far as hmrc is concerned its part and parcel of the sale, and the facilities being offered will be essential to that sale.

People more clever than me will have to decide. Personally, I think HMRC will end up with a bl00dy nose, like they did when they tried to claim unpaid VAT on Jaffa Cakes.

The sad part is, it's you and I who will be left with the legal bill, as it comes out of our tax.

 

[maggi200]

Hmrc has a current policy of spend to defend or Something catchy. It's Somethkng like spend £3billlion to gain £9billion in unpaid tax.

This won't be the last you'll see.

Essentially I agree with hmrc to claim this vat going forward. On the basis of the info I posted above.

I can't see 'it's cooling down' to wash, whilst people might want to... Do any of you actually believe that? Ive never eaten a cold sausage roll from them...

I'm fairly certain the display is kept warm with the pizza slices etc